From prsturgeon at yahoo.com Wed Feb 22 06:42:27 2006 From: prsturgeon at yahoo.com (Peter Sturgeon) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 08:42:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges Message-ID: <20060222134227.98645.qmail@web53011.mail.yahoo.com> Working on a number of SOPS regarding vaccines, with quite a number of temperature-sensitive steps: Store at -4 ?C Warm to 25 ?C We are asking the SMEs to identify tolerances and ranges, so we're seeing both store at -2 to -6 ?C and store at -4 ?C ? 2. With the latter, not sure if the degree symbol needs to be repeated. Comments? Peter Sturgeon From emessar at ouvip.com Wed Feb 22 06:56:35 2006 From: emessar at ouvip.com (Mike Ranson) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:56:35 -0000 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges References: Message-ID: <001e01c637b7$ccd7b7b0$0401a8c0@MIKE001> Hi. Whenever I've written something similar I've not generally repeated the relevant symbol and this was never commented on going right back to my degree studies, so I think it's a matter of grammar rather than convention. I would say you can repeat the symbol if you like how it reads and think that will help make it clearer, but in my humble opinion it doesn't need it. ----- Original Message ----- > Working on a number of SOPS regarding vaccines, with quite a number of > temperature-sensitive steps: > > Store at -4 ?C > > Warm to 25 ?C > > We are asking the SMEs to identify tolerances and ranges, so we're > seeing both store at -2 to -6 ?C and store at -4 ?C ? 2. > > With the latter, not sure if the degree symbol needs to be repeated. > > Comments? > > Peter Sturgeon > -- ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 29643 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! From prsturgeon at yahoo.com Wed Feb 22 07:30:55 2006 From: prsturgeon at yahoo.com (Peter Sturgeon) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:30:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060222143055.97852.qmail@web53005.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks. I assume if there's a ?3 or whatever, that it's in the same unit of measurement as what came before it, or otherwise I'd see a new unit? Peter From Margaret.Morris at jhuapl.edu Wed Feb 22 08:02:45 2006 From: Margaret.Morris at jhuapl.edu (Morris, Margaret K.) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:02:45 -0500 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges Message-ID: <37C0E4170AB09E4AB57A9EC41539DF8566F0D5@aplesjustice.dom1.jhuapl.edu> I have been a technical editor in the physical sciences for many years. The style convention in scientific technical journals is as follows. For degrees Celsius & Fahrenheit, you can chose the style ?C or C, ?F or F, (i.e., with or without the degree symbol, but be consistent); BTW, for Kelvin (K) a degree sign is never correct. The unit is officially "Kelvins" not "degrees Kelvin" in the NIST standards, & the degree symbol is considered obsolete. For degrees Celsius, use -4?C (no space after numeral; the degree sign replaces the space) OR -4 C (no degree sign, just a space) In ranges: -2? to -6?C OR -2 to -6 C (Unit symbol at end of pair) OR -2?C to -6?C (unit symbol after both quantities) ALSO -4? ? 2?C OR -4 ? 2 C (Unit symbol at end of pair) OR -4?C ? 2?C (unit symbol after both) NOT -4?C ? 2 (considered ambiguous) So, either use the abbreviation after both numerals in the range or after the second numeral of the pair. Hope that helps. This is what I've seen done all of my career & what is recommended in the technical style manuals we use. Margaret Margaret Knox Morris, Technical Writer/Editor The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory 11100 Johns Hopkins Road, Laurel, MD 20723-6099 240-228-3239 (phone); 240-2286189 (fax) margaret.morris at jhuapl.edu -----Original Message----- From: bounce-stcscsig-l-105643 at lists.stc.org [mailto:bounce-stcscsig-l-105643 at lists.stc.org] On Behalf Of Peter Sturgeon Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:42 AM To: STC Science SIG discussions Subject: [stcscsig-l] degrees, tolerances, and ranges Working on a number of SOPS regarding vaccines, with quite a number of temperature-sensitive steps: Store at -4 ?C Warm to 25 ?C We are asking the SMEs to identify tolerances and ranges, so we're seeing both store at -2 to -6 ?C and store at -4 ?C ? 2. With the latter, not sure if the degree symbol needs to be repeated. Comments? Peter Sturgeon --- You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: margaret.morris at jhuapl.edu To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stcscsig-l-105643L at lists.stc.org From b.vogel at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 22 17:15:58 2006 From: b.vogel at sbcglobal.net (Barb Vogel) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:15:58 -0800 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FCFEBE.7090403@sbcglobal.net> Peter Sturgeon wrote: >Working on a number of SOPS regarding vaccines, with quite a number of >temperature-sensitive steps: > >Store at -4 ?C > >Warm to 25 ?C > >We are asking the SMEs to identify tolerances and ranges, so we're >seeing both store at -2 to -6 ?C and store at -4 ?C ? 2. > >With the latter, not sure if the degree symbol needs to be repeated. > >Comments? > >Peter Sturgeon > >--- >You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: b.vogel at sbcglobal.net >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stcscsig-l-195432K at lists.stc.org > > > > In any case, there shouldn't be a space between the number and the degree sign (my 2 cents). Barb From Buschj at lincoln.ac.nz Wed Feb 22 15:57:22 2006 From: Buschj at lincoln.ac.nz (Janette Busch) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:57:22 +1300 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FDA37C.11122.72111B17@Buschj.lincoln.ac.nz> Degrees C and % do not have a space after them. Most other units do. e,g Store at -4?C > > Warm to 25?C > > Janette From jajmalone at comcast.net Wed Feb 22 20:46:52 2006 From: jajmalone at comcast.net (Jim Malone) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:46:52 -0700 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges References: Message-ID: <001101c6382b$c8f89000$6501a8c0@Trilby> If you're following SI, you do use a space between the number and the unit ?C. See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/rules.html for more information. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janette Busch" To: "STC Science SIG discussions" Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:57 PM Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges Degrees C and % do not have a space after them. Most other units do. e,g Store at -4?C > > Warm to 25?C > > Janette --- From prsturgeon at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 05:29:08 2006 From: prsturgeon at yahoo.com (Peter Sturgeon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:29:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060223122908.90654.qmail@web53005.mail.yahoo.com> The space between the digit and the ? symbol is one of two acceptable ways of showing temperature information. I'm editing a couple of hundred SOPs, and about half use one method, so I needed to decide which half to fix. WHO, the US Government Printing Office, and other scientific bodies recommend the space, for among other reasons, to keep consistency in display of numbers and their accompanying units. There's no sin in omitting the space--I'm just striving for consistency across a suite. Peter --- Barb Vogel wrote: > In any case, there shouldn't be a space between the number and the > degree sign (my 2 cents). > > Barb From prsturgeon at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 05:33:51 2006 From: prsturgeon at yahoo.com (Peter Sturgeon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:33:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060223123351.20453.qmail@web53014.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, Jim. We are using SI. I'm not trying to start a feud here--the original post was about where to put the symbol, spaced or not, when there is a ? symbol on the line. For degrees of arc, I don't include the space. Peter --- Jim Malone wrote: > If you're following SI, you do use a space between the number and the > unit > ?C. > See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/rules.html for more > information. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janette Busch" > To: "STC Science SIG discussions" > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:57 PM > Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges > > > Degrees C and % do not have a space after them. Most other units do. > > e,g Store at -4?C > > > > Warm to 25?C > > > > > > Janette > > > --- > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: prsturgeon at yahoo.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-stcscsig-l-255313U at lists.stc.org > From PoshedlyK at polysius.com Thu Feb 23 06:14:54 2006 From: PoshedlyK at polysius.com (Poshedly, Ken) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:14:54 -0500 Subject: degrees of arc (was: degrees, tolerances, and ranges) Message-ID: <737AFC2CC600B3419487F80030A84AC10B5AFC@kp04s152.KP04D1.local> Interesting. Jim, you mentioned degrees of arc in your reply. Is this for use in a celestial subjectmatter (as in the apparent width of a sky object)? -- Ken in Atlanta -----Original Message----- From: bounce-stcscsig-l-276464 at lists.stc.org [mailto:bounce-stcscsig-l-276464 at lists.stc.org] On Behalf Of Peter Sturgeon Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:34 AM To: STC Science SIG discussions Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges Thanks, Jim. We are using SI. I'm not trying to start a feud here--the original post was about where to put the symbol, spaced or not, when there is a ? symbol on the line. For degrees of arc, I don't include the space. Peter --- Jim Malone wrote: __________________________ This e-mail message and any attachment contains private and confidential information and is intended for the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), please do not read, copy, use or disclose this communication to others. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. Thank you. ____________________ Polysius Corp. Atlanta, Ga. USA http://www.PolysiusUSA.com Voice: 770-955-3660 Main Fax: 770-955-8789 From elaine at pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov Thu Feb 23 07:33:21 2006 From: elaine at pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov (Elaine Firestone) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:33:21 -0500 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All SI is not created equal in that it depends what other styles you have to follow and what constraints are on the finished product. What I mean is, for example, the American Chemical Society calls for a space between units and the numeral **except** with %, $, ? (angular degrees), ' (angular minutes), and " (angular seconds), whereas Chicago gives you a choice with ?C and the like. If you do put in a space between numbers and their units, then you have to be prepared to go over the final copy prior to printing with a fine-toothed comb to check for bad line breaks, i.e., the number is on one line and the ?C or whatever is on the next line. The best thing you can do to avoid this, is to either put in a non-breaking space, or, use a thin space. The advantage of the thin space, is it gives a separation, but not at the expense of what it looks like. (Thin spaces are what I use and it looks very polished and professional.) In reference to the question of whether or not to repeat the ? symbol when you have the ?, I would for the sake of clarity if nothing else. Example: 45 ?C ? 2 (2 what?) vs. 45 ?C ? 2 ?C (clear as a bell, ? 2 ?C) If these are angular degrees, close up the space and delete the "C". Hope this helps. Elaine >If you're following SI, you do use a space between the number and the unit >?C. >See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/rules.html for more information. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Janette Busch" >To: "STC Science SIG discussions" >Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:57 PM >Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges > > >Degrees C and % do not have a space after them. Most other units do. > >e,g Store at -4?C >> > >Warm to 25?C > > > -- ____________________________________________________________________ Elaine R. Firestone, ELS Publications Team Lead INFONETIC NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center Code 293, Bldg. 28/Rm. W280 Technical Information Services Branch Greenbelt, MD 20771 Phone: 301-286-9004 Fax: 301-286-1705 E-mail: elaine at pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov ***From within GSFC, visit our new Web site: http://tisb.gsfc.nasa.gov/ From jajmalone at comcast.net Thu Feb 23 11:18:25 2006 From: jajmalone at comcast.net (Jim Malone) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:18:25 -0700 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges References: Message-ID: <004901c638a5$89de89e0$6501a8c0@Trilby> I've looked in a couple of style manuals. The only thing I can find with regards to the original question deals with when to repeat the unit symbol when dealing with a range of numbers, but not specifically with the ? symbol. The Sixth Edition of Scientific Style and Format states the following: "Ranges of numbers and their accompnying units are expressed with a single unit symbol following the 2nd number of the range, except when the symbol is set close without spacing. 23 to 47 kV 50 to 250 W/m2 0.7 to 0.9 kg 10% to 100%" So, whether or not you use a space with the temperature degree symbol comes into play if you apply this guideline. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Sturgeon" To: "STC Science SIG discussions" Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:33 AM Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges Thanks, Jim. We are using SI. I'm not trying to start a feud here--the original post was about where to put the symbol, spaced or not, when there is a ? symbol on the line. For degrees of arc, I don't include the space. Peter --- Jim Malone wrote: > If you're following SI, you do use a space between the number and the > unit > ?C. > See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/rules.html for more > information. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janette Busch" > To: "STC Science SIG discussions" > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:57 PM > Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges > > > Degrees C and % do not have a space after them. Most other units do. > > e,g Store at -4?C > > > > Warm to 25?C > > > > > > Janette > > > --- > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: prsturgeon at yahoo.com > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-stcscsig-l-152375C at lists.stc.org > --- You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: jajmalone at comcast.net To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stcscsig-l-152375C at lists.stc.org From Buschj at lincoln.ac.nz Thu Feb 23 12:25:17 2006 From: Buschj at lincoln.ac.nz (Janette Busch) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:25:17 +1300 Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43FEC347.15496.7675544D@Buschj.lincoln.ac.nz> > > If you're following SI, you do use a space between the number and the > > unit > > ?C. I use the New Zealand Government style guide (but I've also noticed that all the international journals I write for don't use a space after the degree either - perhaps this is a discipine matter - I write in the life sciences area.) Janette > > See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/rules.html for more > > information. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Janette Busch" > > To: "STC Science SIG discussions" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:57 PM > > Subject: [stcscsig-l] Re: degrees, tolerances, and ranges > > > > > > Degrees C and % do not have a space after them. Most other units do. > > > > e,g Store at -4?C > > > > > > Warm to 25?C > > > > > > > > > > Janette > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: prsturgeon at yahoo.com > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > leave-stcscsig-l-26221D at lists.stc.org > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: jajmalone at comcast.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stcscsig-l-26221D at lists.stc.org > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to stcscsig-l as: Buschj at lincoln.ac.nz > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-stcscsig-l-26221D at lists.stc.org > From prsturgeon at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 12:32:35 2006 From: prsturgeon at yahoo.com (Peter Sturgeon) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:32:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: degrees, tolerances, and ranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060223193235.43614.qmail@web53006.mail.yahoo.com> Please, folks. Both are acceptable. My original post was about ranges and tolerances. big-end or little-end--doesn't matter, if I can get people in my group to use one rather than the other:) --- Janette Busch wrote: > I use the New Zealand Government style guide (but I've also noticed > that all the international > journals I write for don't use a space after the degree either - > perhaps this is a discipine > matter - I write in the life sciences area.) > > Janette